We’re going to discuss this Suns/Spurs business one more time, now that we’ve heard from the offending (and offended) parties.
This is a non-joke zone, because we actually have an opinion here, and it’s probably not the popular one, based on what we’ve read elsewhere. (Please read carefully before you yell at us.)
After watching all the stuff a bunch of times and reading the explanations from the league, the rebuttels from the press, the angst from the team owners/players, and the justified accusations of hyprocracy from the fans, our opinion is formed.
Here’s Suns owner Robert Sarver, who’s upset and such.
The league goofed Tuesday by suspending Amaré Stoudemire and Boris Diaw for tonight’s Game 5 of the Western Conference semifinals. The league erred by relying on the language of the law instead of the spirit of it.
“I feel we’ve been unjustly penalized for the fact that we just played a good, clean hard game,” Suns owner Robert Sarver said. “I feel if any team should have been penalized in this series, it should be the Spurs, and I feel bad about it.
“I feel like I’ve just been punched in the gut.”
Okay, first of all, we completely agree with this – it sucks that the Spurs are essentially rewarded for their guy causing the whole thing.
THAT SAID (and this is a big THAT SAID), the reason we italicized the thingy up there in blue is because the spirit of the law was followed.
It doesn’t matter if Stoudemire and Diaw weren’t coming to fight or getting ready to throw punches. If any of you have ever been in a fight situation, then you know that having extra hands standing by to support you fires things up just a little more.
All of a sudden three guys “got your back” and you can get a little more shovey, a little more pushy, a little more mouthy, and you’re that much closer to a fight breaking out.
It escalates things, and that’s what the “spirit of the law” is for. It’s supposed to prevent the fight from happening in the first place, not punish people for getting in a fight. It worked – those guys scurried back to the bench, and it stopped things from escalating further and getting out of hand.
The NBA did the right thing in this situation – argue all you want about how it makes the series worse (and it does), it’s not fair to the Suns because they didn’t start it (and they didn’t), and that the rule needs to be revisited (it might), but there’s no doubt that Amare and Boris running out there (and Amare was running aggressively) was going to push things to another level.
(We still think the Suns can win tonight, btw. In fact, we think they will.)
UPDATE: Pounding the Rock, an excellent Spurs blog you may or may not peruse, is not happy with all of this either, as the labels of “thugs and villians” are not exactly pleasing. Their suggestion? San Antonio should sit Tim Duncan tonight, which we feel is something they’d maybe regret tomorrow. We like the spirit, though.
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I think the Suns rally and take this one.
Look for a huge game from RAJA.
the suns have absolutely zero chance without their real mvp… zero… spurs by double digits
As long as the refs start handing out tech’s for coaches being out of their ‘coaching box’ and start calling every single travel, then I’m cool with this decision. I believe The Big Lead has video of Duncan coming out onto the floor earlier in the game and he gets……nothing. I understand that they had to do something, but did they really? You’ve gone from a great series with two evenly matched teams to a series where Phoenix is now giving Paul Shirley a call. I don’t know, just doesn’t seem right
The Suns are still a really good team without Amare – I think they run like nuts tonight -
Didn’t they survive a whole season without Amare once?
If you call the WCF surviving.
The Duncan getting up earlier argument is pretty weak – there was no fight starting there.
The rules are the rules, it’s too bad the Suns didn’t follow them. I hope the NBA changes them, and I hope the Suns win tonight.
I agree with the suspensions in the sense that the league has to enforce those rules but I also agree that the rules need to be revisited. So I agree twice, how very poignant. I suck. So does XM. F them.
Yeah it’s not like the Spurs are like the Lasers were last week, ie unbeatable.
Lasers = pathetic.
Time to put Boney on suicide watch… If/when the Lasers lose this game in 7, Boney will have to go into hibernation for a while.
The entire league has been hypnotized by summer movie season! So many sequels, so little time!
i think the suspensions are a joke, but i also believe the suns will still win tonight. they’re all pumped up now.
I think it’s time to end this whole “Lasers” thing. It’s really silly. And not in a fun way. It makes the original Ranger Corps posts look coherent.
There’s only so many ways to make the Detroit tema interesting, though. I’m open to suggestions.
lasers are money, especially when they’re put on sharks!
Frank, the refs didn’t T up Horry for fighting, so was there a fight or not? If they can suspend everyone for what wasn’t a fight….they can do the same to Duncan. It’s a crap rule. They could have suspended the entire Bulls bench last night when they stood up and cheered.
It’s not a crap rule, though. Nobody complained about it when it was used in the Knicks-Nuggetts brawl or any of the other number of times its been used.
Didn’t Horry get ejected? He threw a punch (forearm) at Raja Bell’s face. His face. Raja’s face.
the rule should be enforced using common sense. instead it’s being enforced blindly, and the net result is that a great playoff series has been screwed up for essentially nothing.
i just hate this “a rule is a rule” mentality. the league didn’t “have to” enforce this rule the way they did. they don’t have to do anything. they’re the league. they could have very easily said “from now on, this rule will be enforced on a case by case basis and in this situation we feel that it is not sensible to suspend these two players.” who would have complained? patrick ewing? who gives a shit. the fans wouldn’t have complained, and neither would the spurs, since they don’t want this crap either.
for a league that jumps through so many hoops to make the games better and more entertaining, they certainly know how to shoot themselves in the foot from time to time.
But what happens when tomorrow night Ben Wallace and Kirk Hinrich come off the bench, only they went a foot less than Amare and Boris, only they were angrier looking, and Stern decides to suspend them? It’d be an even bigger nightmare. You can’t just arbitrarily change rules in the middle of the Playoffs because it went bad once. Overall, this rule has been good for the NBA, and nobody has really complained about it before.
Sure – look at it again in the offseason, but you can’t change it now. Maybe make it 2 feet or more from the bench or something, to allow for natural forward momentum – I dunno.
like i said, i think they could have announced that, from this point forward, the rule will be enforced on a case by case basis. That way, nobody would get suspended unless they were actually throwing punches or shoving people or fighting in some way, so ben wallace and kirk hinrich (looking angry? how cute) would not have been suspended either.
i understand the notion that the league needs to enforce things equally, but i also feel that common sense should rule above all else. and if there’s one thing that David Stern has gone out of his way to prove over the years, it’s that he can do whatever the hell he wants, when he wants. and in this case, for once, he could have made an executive decision that actually served to make things better.
agree to disagree, i guess.
how can you make an adjustment to the rule when the season is nearly 80% complete and the rule has only been enforced once (I believe) this season? it’s a bogus rule, but it was put in place to keep the players on the bench during an “altercation”. It was “escalated” by the fact that Raja Bell came running up to Horry in a manner that would suggest punches were about to be thrown. It’s easy for Suns fans to get angry about it, but if anything, you should be angry at Raja Bell for escalating it from a flagrant 2 ejection to a shoving and shouting match.
The rule was upheld the way it was supposed to be upheld. It’s not fair to the other 29 teams in the league if you make this one exception.
the rule was upheld as all rules are supposed to be. I’m sure they’ll change it in the off-season, but you can’t change a rule 80% of the way through the season.
I agree that the rule has worked before but this time it’s not working correctly. As Dave said, they need to use a little common sense at times. I was a little foolish in my use of the term “crap rule”, sorry for that. I got a little worked up. It’s a good rule in the sense that it keeps things from getting way out of hand and as a fan, I appreciate that.
Horry wasn’t suspended for starting a fight, he was suspended for his flagrant foul. As they ruled it on the court, there wasn’t a ‘fight’ or ‘altercation’. So, Amare wasn’t coming off the bench for an altercation, just for a foul. At least that was my understanding of it.
There isn’t anything to be done at this point. The players will sit out, the Suns will play short-handed in the most important series of the season for them. There will still be 48 minutes in regulation and the team with the most points wins.
boney, i understand that point of view. it is based in sound logic. still, i would have been happy if they made an exception in this case, because i am selfish, and i just want the games to be interesting and to hell with everything else
let’s just hope – pray – that this gets addressed in the offseason. all rules should be enforced on a case by case basis. all this zero tolerance bullshit does is put everybody in the same box regardless of circumstances.
NBA ruled Horry was suspended one game for the flagrant 2 and one game for the forearm to the neck of Raja. There was an altercation because a technical foul was assessed to Raja for getting in the face of Horry when Horry put his forearm out to keep a sprinting Raja out of his face, watch the replay again.
I don’t think it’s fun that they exercised the rule like this, it takes away from the team that didn’t start the whole mess. If you don’t use the rule the right way though, it will begin to effect teams that weren’t trying to get altercations or fights.
Much like when a pitcher hits a batter in the head with a fastball… who’s to say it was intentional? who’s to say he was trying to hit him? so long as there are people making judgement calls based on the rule book, there will be problems like this. The rule is in place to keep Amare from running up and grabbing Horry by his jersey and getting in his face (that’s what would have happened, in my judgement). Because what happens when Stoudemire does it? Then Beno Udrih runs up and gets in the face of Eric Piatkowski in a battle of guys with the funny names! The rule book needs to stay cut and dry, if it begins with the “case by case” basis then you’re counting on someone’s “judgement” to decide the fate of a team’s “superstar”.
dave I think that’s a better way to be – the more subjective they make things, the more people will be screaming “unfair”.
It’s much simpler to enforce and justify “don’t come off the bench” than a “well, don’t come off the bench this much, and only if you look like you might do this, but you were looking to your left and smiling for 1 second, so…”
They change this rule and the next time it gets enforced, everyone will be trying to justify their own interpretation of things, and when Stern’s is “the right one”, he’ll find himself getting more heat than he is now.
It’s easy to say “use common sense” until you remember that a large portion of the populace doesn’t have any, especially when their love of their sports teams becomes involved.
i don’t have a problem with the rule, but the enforcement. if amare ran up and grabbed anybody, or if anybody does something like that from the bench, they should be suspended. was he trying to do that before he was pulled back by his coach? maybe, maybe not. i don’t think it matters, because he didn’t do it. i dont think the rule should be so rigid that if someone takes a few steps out there and has absolutely ZERO impact on the altercation they should be suspended anyway.
perhaps instead of “case by case” they should simply change the rule to suspend anyone who gets physically involved in the altercation in any way (punching, shoving, touching, anything). that would remove the judgement part of it, but also make it more reasonable.
i just get fed up sometimes with the league’s hyper-sensitivity to pushing and shoving and whatnot. i know there was a time when they were too lacksadaisical about that stuff, but in my opinion they have gone to the other extreme. they need to find a happy medium.
you want it to be a judgement call, and in the world of “opinions are like assholes, everyone has one” you can’t make this a judgement call. Strictly by the book, unfortunately. If it happened to the Spurs, the Suns fans would be calling for Duncan and Beno Udrih to be suspended as well, so what can you do?
Would you want a police officer to let a drunk driver go after he got into a car accident with you because he felt like the drunk guy wasn’t trying to get involved in the accident?
Rules are rules, whether you’re a Suns, Spurs, or Suckfest fan.
Well my point is that the act of running out there, regardless of whether they do anything, gets the people already involved (as well as the crowd) more excitable. It makes the likelyhood of a fight that much higher.
How’s this – what purpose does it serve Amare to run out there? To stand there and look tough? What possible reason does he have to go, unless he’s planning to participate in some kind of shoving/fighting/screaming? You can say he’s going to check on Steve Nash, but what exactly is he going to do – apply emergency medical care?
Ironic that the fight in here is better than one that the rule prevented.
this comment thingie is not working.
testing!! 1-2-3
You shouldn’t be sad because the Suns lost Amare and Boris for tonight’s game. Be happy because you are going to see the best C/F alive…Pat Burke. Enjoy it as long as you can. It seems impossible, but Mikki Moore from now on will only be runner-up for the “Are you kidding me? This guy is a NBA Center/Forward?”-Award.
Focusing on whether or not the rule is fair or rational is beside the point, the rule exists, ipso facto the league has to enforce it, it’s that simple. I recognize that having no vested interest in the series makes it easier to say that but, as Boney said, we can’t change the rules this far into the game simply because they were correctly enforced.
I’m going to agree with The Cav here. Like I said earlier on other sites, argue all you want now that Amare (but be silent when a Knick is involved) every player in the league must be aware of the rule. If not, send them footage of Patrick Ewing in the 1997 playoffs during the Heats-Knicks series. Every player, every team knows the deal. Don’t be such dumbasses next time, Amare and Bo.
That being said, it is a stupid rule. But Stern obviously believes in it, and has been consistant with it throughout the past 10 years. Asking for leniency now is silly….
Oh, and aside to The Cav: I got a call from WSM. WSM wants to join forces with me. Sorry herb…
“I asked for Sharks with freaking laser beams on their heads!” How about some ill tempered Sea Bass?
I’m surprised nobody has been talking about the Photoshop job on this post. I’m crying because of this ref’s face. Could be the best picture since Sam Cassell with his hands in his pants. RAJA LET ME TOUCH YOUR SKIN THAT IS CARESSED WITH ALOE VERA!
well i had a wonderfully written, concise retort, but i was stymied by the comment thingie. conspiracy? you decide.
let’s just say i hope they change the rule next year so that if someone comes off the bench and doesn’t get physically involved in the altercation, he doesn’t get suspended. there’s no need to interpret anyone’s intentions. it can be strictly by-the-book. A guy comes off the bench and lays a finger on anyone: suspension. if he tries to, and gets held back by his coach, then it’s his lucky day and he owes his coach lunch.
and spare me the drunk driving analogy, boney. this is basketball, not life and death. i would never ask for lenience for somebody who was drinking and driving. (unless it was me)
it was a fair comparison to enforcement of the rules dave!
you picked the wrong side of the argument to be on!
I think you have a good argument here. I still feel like EVERYBODY is getting cheated in this situation though. Amare and Boris had NO effect on the situation (regardless of their intentions). I know you have to draw the line somewhere, but the Suns have been getting the shaft all series, and I think this is just insult to injury.
I would also like to say this. If the Spurs win tonight, they have a great chance of taking the series.
I ASK YOU, NBA FANS OF THE WORLD. ARE YOU PREPARED TO SIT THROUGH A 7 GAME SERIES FEATURING THE SPURS AND JAZZ?
I just fell asleep thinking about it.
stern was just on PTI. Tony/Mike did not agree with the suspensions.
as usual, Stern acquitted himself quite well, but mike/tony did, too, and they reiterated my very simple, logical point, which is that there should be wiggle room in every rule.
Like if I hit a game winning three pointer with my foot on the three point line, it should be counted as a three because it was my intent to win the game with that shot. I thought my foot was behind the line, I thought I was winning the game. It was my intent to win the game.
I’m not sure what choice David Stern had here, not suspend two guys who ran off the bench? And it’s not like they got up and immediately jumped back thinking “oh shit, I might get suspended!”, Amare had to be pulled back (and one of the refs was actually watching Amare to make sure he wasn’t going to do anything, instead of, you know paying attention to the guys on the court).
The NBA’s thinking is that the 5 guys on the court can be shoving and stuff and the refs/coaches can get in the middle of it and end it. But when guys start popping off the bench… thats when the real shit starts.
The letter and the spirit of the law were enforced and I don’t really see how or why this needs changing. The big thing is for players to control their emotions (especially guys on the bench not in the heat of battle). The Suns didn’t.
Is it unfortunate? Ya. Is it cheap? Kinda. But I’m not sure what the other option is here.
Again, if they came off the bench and immediately ran back, being wary of the suspensions, I think Stern would’ve let them off. But Amare was going out there and wasn’t thinking (personally, I think Stoudamire wants to beat the Spurs too much. Complaining about dirty plays, yelling at Bowen from the bench and now this. He really wants to be these guys).
All that being said, the Suns can very well win tonight.
The only “wiggle room” is that this is an important game and nobody wants to see them miss it. What happens when the Hawks try to use that argument after Josh Smith leaves the bench in a December game?
Stern either has to say “the Hawks don’t matter to the NBA” (true as it might be) or let him off.
this thing doesn’t work.
I agree with the Cavalier’s stand. I disagree with the Sports Guy’s column.
Anyway, here’s something we can all agree on. The Spurs used to be the boringest of all boring teams. There’s Timmy and his fundamentals, Admiral Robinson and his bible, coach Pop and his coaching.
Now… Thug life baby! Cheap Shot Rob, B-Bowen and ManuFlop! They’re kind of the 2007 Bad Boys!
This whole “Spurs are dirty” thing actually makes the inevitable prospect of a Spurs-Lasers finals a little more palatable.
i would say they should apply the same logic to josh smith in december: did he have any effect on the altercation? did he push anyone? touch anyone? no? then he shouldn’t be suspended. that should be the standard for everyone, not just the suns.
and that’s it for me. i’m done arguing
I tried posting a witty post that really puts an end to this whole mess but I can’t post it. Bias.
You can’t just let guys run out there, though! You’re inviting a riot. What if one of them runs out there and blind-side cold-cocks somebody? Then everyone is screaming that there needs to be some rule where guys can’t come off the bench because things get out of hand…oh.
Unless you’re going out there to fight or give medical care, you have no reason to go out there. Can you name one reason any bench player needs to run out onto the court?
to give hugs after winning a game?
http://www.poundingtherock.com/story/2007/5/16/182424/221
Link to my response on this subject under my crazed Don nickname “Tony Pelosi”. And Cav, if you’re running one of them “no bad words” format around here, you sir are ridiculous. Lets just get the Detriot Pistons-amanure and Spurs finals underway already.
The Cavs can never be depended on, ever.
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