As you likely know by now, the Western Finals is all set, as the Spurs knocked off the Suns in Game 6 last night. And you know what? That’s fine.
Sure, the Suns would be more entertaining in the next round, but the Spurs won – fair and square – no questions asked; no exceptions. We’re glad, too.
Why, says you? Here’s why – with ESPN people complaining and bloggers complaining, we’ve about had it with all the craziness. You have no right to complain.
And if I’m not going to watch much of the next two series, I’m sure the average NBA fan won’t either. So, good job, Mr Stern and Mr Jackson. You proved you were the big men in town. But you hurt your business in the process. But hey, at least you got to go home and tell your wives you bossed people around for a few days. That’s got to make you feel good.
Seriously, how can anyone justify this viewpoint? Do you people realize what would’ve happened if David Stern just arbitrarily decided the rules don’t count for this particular Suns team?
People would be screaming bloody murder – absolutely, positively, without fail. It’s insane – you can’t do that. You can’t just say, “Oh, well we like this Suns team a lot and those are like really good players who broke the rule, so we’re not going to follow it this time”.
For all the conspiracies about fixing the results of games the NBA deals with, you people were asking for that exact thing to happen. You were asking the NBA to cheat for the Phoenix Suns – in what context does that make any sense?
Look at it this way – reverse the situation, and make it Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen who got “screwed”. We’re guessing 99% of NBA fans are laughing about it.
We get it – it would’ve been a better series if Amare and Boris had played – but the rules are the rules. This is like if Dwyane Wade fouled out, and they just stopped the game and said, “Hey, we’re gonna let Wade have 8 fouls, okay? Good, let’s play.”
You can’t change the rules just because you want different results. There are no “what ifs”, no (whatever the plural of asterix is), no nothing. Everything happened exactly how it was supposed to and it was 100% fair.*
*You can argue all day about whether the rule needs to be changed, but as you well know by now, we agree with Mark Cuban – the rule is good; the rule works; the rule does exactly what it’s supposed to.
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Well said Cavalier. I agree with being fucking sick of hearing everyone screaming bloody murder about this whole situation. Just let it go folks, it’s over. And as for Lebron, I thought it was supposed to take some critical acclaim for someone to not care so badly. Kinda like Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop I & II and then mailing in the shit show that was BHC III. And if this is true does that mean that Pavlovic is Serg and Damon Jones is Billy Rosewood?
Asterices. (I think)
This is damn near poetic. I never knew you could type stuff like this. I’m glad you called out that idiot at Brightsideofthesun, who is so blatantly a just unlikeable person you would bang his mother, then call him your step son out of pure anger. We won it fair and square, like it or not. I say we get by The Mormons in 6. Funny thing is that Spur nation all of a sudden became the biggest Cavaliers fans on the planet. I could care less if its the Cavs or the Detroit Pistons-amanure. We’re on our way to 4 and thats what really matters.
If Larry Hughes finds a basketball in the forrest, does he shoot it? (TM)T.P.
Got a court date next week, so maybe the Spurs will be in the Finals by the time i’m back to PtR or here. Congrats to all my LIU grads. This weekend (and summer) will be an adventure to say the least.
By the way, just thought you might wanna read this:
http://www.spursdynasty.com/2007/05/if-thats-what-kissing-your-sister-feels.html
The most well written piece ever. Ever. And if you notice towards the end, prophetic as well.
Fantastic post. God, I’ve been waiting for Someone, Anyone over at the WWL or the runner-up (CNNSI) to quit whining and admit the obvious, to suspend the rules in favor of the Suns would be just as bad, if not worse, than the alleged ballot stuffing, “Ewing to NY” incident.
If, as Henry Abbott writes, the rule is overly draconian, then we should argue for it too be changed. However, this is exactly the problem (as well as the benefit) of a brightline rule. It mandates compliance, without ifs, ands, or buts. The League can and must suspend anyone who violates this rule and cannot be accused of unfair or selective enforcement.
These brightline rules can easily be biased if they are gerrymandered to apply only to certain types of individuals. For example, mandatory sentencing rules that apply to crack but not cociane have roundly been criticized as racist. However, no one can possibly argue that the mandatory suspension rule was tailored toward the Suns, (particulary a Frenchman on the Suns, although no one’s complaining about Diaw).
If anyone has been targeted by this rule, it would have been the Pacers of old. This is tailored at the Artests and Stephen Jacksons of the world. The fact that the Suns got hit with it is high irony.
Well done Cavalier. It must be said if a player can’t follow a simple rule like keep your ass on the bench, there’s no way you’d want that player in a highly charged situation.
The original is asterisk, thus the plural is asterisks. It’s often mispronounced like you spelled it–with an icks sound instead of isk. Now, we’re all clear and I can go back to sleep.
Btw, my dream match-up/ratings blockbuster of Utah v. New Jersey is over. What a cruel, cruel world.
whether you think the commish made the right decision (he didn’t…) or that the rule works just fine as it is (it doesn’t…), how can you not see that the suns got screwed??? if you were amare or boris (people are still named boris?), what would you have done? just sat there while your meal ticket is getting body checked by someone twice his size?
yeah, you can argue that the nba just followed the rule and did what they had to do, but that’s a bloody stupid rule. if the spurs are the nba’s new england patriots, then this their “tuck rule.” it just happened to come at the end of their chamionship run instead the the beginning.
Stupid rule, perhaps true. But unlike the Tuck Rule there is no subjective determination. They got off the bench during an altercation (and there’s no question this rule was made for this type of situation).
The application of a brightline rule is never about making the just determination ad hoc. This rule is about what “rule utiliarianism.” In other words, you sent the rules in such a way as to coerce substantial compliance with a socially beneficial behavoir. Mandatory sentences on drug offenses are one example, albeit arguably misguided.
The offenders are screwed, but so what. The NBA made a policy decision that it’s better for the NBA for the rule violators (not the Suns, specifically) to get screwed than for another Kermit Washington/Rudy T situation to happen.
Right or wrong, that’s the determination and you have to follow it.
Does it matter that the rule has been selectively enforced in the past? See Lakers/Kings fight in the tunnel that cleared the benches. The league ruled that the players went there as peacemakers. Hell, Amare didn’t even get there.
At least know your history before you write this drivel. The rule has been subject to interpretation in the past. The league clearly blew it. Being contrarian gets more hits though I’d imagine.
Awesome post.
Although still getting over the term “Spur Nation” by one of the comments above. Does every fan base have to be “______ nation” now? So overplayed and it just sounds stupid with just any team name thrown in there. Something about Mariners Nation, Spurs Nation, etc. that just doesn’t work. Lets the Raiders and Red Sox have it and be done with it.
Now here, I have to agree with you, although it would have been nice to see both teams at full strength. I thought Bill Simmons had this exactly right in his column when he said that the Suns made a mistake in going all-out in Game 5. So the Suns essentially roll over in Game 5–play guys like Pat Burke mega minutes, and in fact have Pat soften up old Timmy a bit for Game 6 by shooting those jumpers and giving a few elbows. Then in Game 6, they get a rested Amare and Boris back, and have revenge on their side from being blown out in Game 5, and win that game. Then there’s a game 7.
Instead, D’Antoni rolls the dice on winning a Game 5 without his first-team All-NBA forward, predictably loses when they run out of gas, and then they’re too tired for Game 6. Not the NBA’s fault the Suns were thinking too much about winning Game 5 instead of winning the series.
John R.
Then by your definition, all of the Pistons and Pacers should have been suspended for trying to stop the fight in the Palace? Then the coaches and the trainers should have been suspended too?
Please bro, a rule is a rule. You can thank the Knicks and Heat for being too ignorant 10 years ago for having that rule be in place.
so the suns should have tried less hard in game 5? i dont think you can really afford to throw away a game in a playoff series just to save your energy. they didn’t lose game 6 because they expended too much energy in game 5. they lost because they got four less baskets than the spurs.
I agree with this post. A rule is a rule, and they broke the rules plain and simple. Quiet as it’s kept, I honestly don’t think Suns would have taken the series, even if they had extended it to seven games so to me (as a die-hard Pistons fan) *shrug* the outcome is the same.
btw, I love the site. The cartoons are killer, the thought bubbles get me everytime.
Agreed 100%. Regardless of whether it’s a stupid rule that needs to be fixed, you HAVE to enforce it.
Dave: Shawn Marion contributed little to Game 6. Maybe it’s because he ran out of gas after playing 45 minutes in Game 5? D’antoni could’ve used his bench a little more. Pat Burke was worth six fouls on Duncan and he only played two minutes a game against San Antonio.
I am a huge Suns fan and I have to agree. I think the misconception (well not really, everyone is just bitchin) is that the NBA screwed up with the rule and not the ruling. I think it was lame that Horry got suspended 2 games….I mean I guess it was because of the random elbow that accidently hit Chooo in the chin when he tried to push him but seriously I’m sick of these stupid suspensions for some hard foul in the playoffs.
I think the Suns win the Series without the suspensions given, but that doesn’t mean the Spurs aren’t deserving as everyone is making it out to seem. They flat out played the Suns during crunch time. Obviously it would be different with Amare and Diaw because Kurt would have gotten more rest towards the end of Game 5 but it is what it is.
I like D’Antoni but he’s atrocious in crunch time. He just basically tells Steve to do whatever and then praises his team and how great they played for the first 42 minutes in the post game press conference.
Since when has everyone started going for the Suns? I thought everyone hated the Suns and D’Antoni’s whinning and the stupid fans….yes we do have some moron fans but wtf. Spurs arent getting any respect and yes this is coming from a Suns fan who realizes this could-have-been dynasty is over. We’re like the A’s from 88-90.
Solution for the cap problem? Trade Matrix to get Oden. Seriously Oden and Stoudemire running all game with Nash navigating would be mindboggling to watch. I love Shawn but if they are really that serious about dumping him, then make sure Ainge drafts the wrong guy so we can trade up to get Oden
BTW I’m still rofling over Manu the Musical
Cav,
I once again agree with everything you just said. Simple and to the point. Plus it came with a nice photoshop job. Gotta love the YAY.
Hey Boney: Just learn to ignore John R. If you’ve ever been over to Forum Blue and Gold you’d know why I’m saying this. But trust me, it’s best just not to respond…
Cav- I agree 100%. The fact that every is extremely mad at David Stern for this boggles my mind. It’s like they are willfully ignorant on what the rule is there for.
And don’t people think that Stern would rather have the run-and-gun Suns and the 2-time MVP moving on? You think he wants the Spurs again?
He made the right call. The rule works.
i don’t think it’s willful ignorance, ben. it’s just that some people, myself included, don’t really like the rule. i understand why it had to be enforced, but i’d like to see it tweaked in the future. i’d like to make it so that players who step off the bench and retreat or get pulled back are forgiven, and the punishment is reserved for players actually involved in the fighting. Pushing, shoving, touching, grazing – all of it would be just as illegal as it is now. no change there. but they would be more lenient with players who do harmless things like run out and then run back in. I do not think the league will descend into violent anarchy if this happens.
Stern’s a lawyer by training and acts as the judiciary in this present dispute. The laws are up the legislature, in this case, the lawyers. Stern knows that selective enforcement of clearly constructed, but perhaps, misguided rules is a far greater afront to justice than its strict application in an unfortunate situation.
The owners should change the rule in the offseason if this is such a travesty. No other option is fair.
I mean, Christ, stay on the damn bench. It’s not that hard. (I mean, it’s not like Todd Bertuzzi maimed Nash by deliberately cracking him across the head with his stick. Horry was frustrated, yes, but wasn’t trying to injure Nash. This was not a riot-inducing incident anymore than any flagrant foul. It was a hard foul that Nash embellished. Shoot, blame Nash for exaggerating the foul.)
I don’t know… as I see it… the problem isn’t the decision to suspend Amare and Boris, but the other things that have been allowed. This rule has been selectively enforced previously, citing the same Lakers/Kings series (and maybe Bowen/Duncan in the same game, depending on your definition of an altercation… or rather, Stu Jackson’s). But whatever, we’ll let that go. I just don’t get how Amare can be suspended for stepping on the court (and not even doing anything else), while Baron Davis can get away with an elbow to the head or Bowen can get away with stepping under Amare or the likes. Hard fouls happen; the NBA has gotten to calling them because of the uproar (by fans and players both) that arise if nothing is called. The NBA has adopted this dictatorship-like rule, with the refs and Stern/Jackson in charge. Whatever they call is the rule. Is their favoritism? Yes. Is it fair? No. Will complaining about it do anything? No. Yes, I am complaining. But no, I don’t expect anything to come from it (I’m way past believing that the NBA will change anything). I just think the NBA should realize that nothing came of them leaving the bench (the “altercation”… if there was one… started after they had gone back and when Raja Bell confronted Horry). Amare/Diaw couldn’t have escalated something that started after thy were back on the bench.
Again. I guess my real problem is that stepping on the court results in an ejection, but not throwing an elbow or a knee or whatnot. And also the fact that altercation isn’t clearly defined and it is up to guys that I don’t trust to decide what an altercation is. Just my thoughts though, that something needs to be changed.
I don’t know… as I see it… the problem isn’t the decision to suspend Amare and Boris, but the other things that have been allowed. This rule has been selectively enforced previously, citing the same Lakers/Kings series (and maybe Bowen/Duncan in the same game, depending on your definition of an altercation… or rather, Stu Jackson’s). But whatever, we’ll let that go. I just don’t get how Amare can be suspended for stepping on the court (and not even doing anything else), while Baron Davis can get away with an elbow to the head or Bowen can get away with stepping under Amare or the likes. Hard fouls happen; the NBA has gotten to calling them because of the uproar (by fans and players both) that arise if nothing is called. The NBA has adopted this dictatorship-like rule, with the refs and Stern/Jackson in charge. Whatever they call is the rule. Is their favoritism? Yes. Is it fair? No. Will complaining about it do anything? No. Yes, I am complaining. But no, I don’t expect anything to come from it (I’m way past believing that the NBA will change anything). I just think the NBA should realize that nothing came of them leaving the bench (the “altercation”… if there was one… started after they had gone back and when Raja Bell confronted Horry). Amare/Diaw couldn’t have escalated something that started after thy were back on the bench.
Again. I guess my real problem is that stepping on the court results in an ejection, but not throwing an elbow or a knee or whatnot. And also the fact that altercation isn’t clearly defined and it is up to guys that I don’t trust to decide what an altercation is. Just my thoughts though, that something needs to be changed. Of course, having never been in a similar situation, I don’t know what exactly goes through the mind when a teammate gets nailed to the floor… I don’t think it be natural reaction to sit there and laugh and watch as it happens though.
He hardly just “stepped on the court” – he was moving people out of the way and rushing out to where everyone was starting to go at each other.
1.) The problem is that people want to blame someone for this mess…
Amare did what everyone would do for his teammate and Stern enforced the rule. You can’t blame Amare for what he did and you can’t blame Stern for what he did.
2.) To all people talking about “changing the rule”, imagine this: Next year, Spurs vs. Suns playoff series, Tim Duncan gets off the bench like Amare did this year. How many people will blame Stern for screwing up again?
The NBA can’t change this rule even if they’d like to.
Dave- that’s the thing, like the Cavalier said, it wasn’t like he just ran out and back in (”oops, my bad”). He charged out there and had to be pulled back. And like I’ve said before (here and my site) Amare ran out there to get in the middle of things (peace maker? maybe. Could he have kicked the intensity up a notch? Possibly). One of the refs had to have his attention on Amare rather than what was happening on the court- this is what the rule is there to prevent (so the refs can deal with the mess on the court without having to take care of anyone else).
And I think people who are saying “well he didn’t get in a fight or throw any punches” (or “the letter not the spirit”) are being willfully ignorant (or at least missing the point). The rule isn’t “don’t go on the court and punch anybody” the rule is “don’t go on the court for whatever reason during an altercation”. He did that. There is no other interpretation. And I don’t think it’s a dumb rule, its there so the refs have to only deal with 10 guys and not 30.
If you want to blame somebody (besides Robert Horry or the guys running out on the court), blame the Suns’ coaches. They have to A) drill into their players’ heads to never leave the bench and B) take care of their guys when shit goes down. They didn’t.
Yeah, what Ben said – and again, what possible reason could Amare have to go out there other than to mix it up with the other team?
1) “To protect Steve” isn’t the right answer, because that would entail mixing it up with the other team, in which case the rule is proven to be necessary.
2) “To check on Steve” also is incorrect, since that would imply that Amare Stoudemire is a doctor of some sort.
i don’t give a shit what his intention was. the fact is, he didn’t do anything. in baseball, when everybody streams out of the dugout for a bench clearer, only the ones who actually throw punches are punished. the rest are sent back to the dugout, despite the fact that they weren’t running out there to have a love-in.
thats the way i think basketball should be IN THE FUTURE. i understand why they made the call against the suns. i understand it was simply enforcing the rule as it was written, so you don’t have to keep convincing me that their decision was justified, okay? i understand that. i’m saying in the offseason, i would like them to change the rule.
dave, what you’re saying is we need to wait until someone gets hurt, or at least is in a higher danger of getting hurt, before anything is done about it. First of all, it is always, always wiser to prevent a problem from ever happening, than to try to do something about it after the fact. Second of all, this isn’t baseball where the fans are seated at a much elevated level in relation to the field, and this isn’t hockey where fans are more or less protected by the glass. Basketball isn’t like that. Given the Malice at the Palace and the ease with which Ron Artest got into the stands, and the ease with which fans got onto the court, you HAVE TO, I repeat, HAVE TO stop it before it even happens. That’s why this rule is here, and that’s why it’s here to stay.
John R and other historians, perhaps you all should review the history books. The Kings/Lakers fight that spilled into the tunnel (2003), was a PRESEASON game. The rules that govern these situations are not necessarily the same. Stern taking a different course of action on a preseason game won’t affect the post season, just the beginning of the regular season. Stern or the NBA has not bent the rules, they have rigidly adhered to them.
Also, wasn’t that scuffle not during the actual game? Wasn’t after it or something?
Rubbish. I’ve had it up to here with the “a rule is a rule” rationalizations that seek to reduce everything to some black-and-white situation that little resembles the initial incident. Think about the American legal system. Is a rule just a rule there? Hell no. We have many, many situations where the cold objectivity of a rule is compensated for by a human audience– by the juries and judges who can see shades of grey and opt for the spirit of the law when the letter doesn’t fit the crime. Ostensibly identical crimes are often given vastly different penalties, not because the rules dictate as much but because human eyes judge them. Why shouldn’t the NBA judge Amare and Boris within the context of the situation, rather than according to some absolute “he did or did not stand up” standard? Is it cheating to give every unique situation a unique appraisal? What’s more, the real legal system doesn’t consolidate power in a single sovereign body; it offers appeals, multiple opportunities for all sides to have their day in court and for absolute fairness to have its best shot at the light of day. How is it fair that Amare and Boris had no realistic recourse in this situation?
This whole thing was just so over-the-top…
First, I can’t think of any other rule the NBA has enforced with as much consistency as they have this one. They did it to bigger stars than Amare, they did it when it had an even bigger impact on a playoff series, and they did it against bigger-market teams (big-market teams don’t come any bigger than the Knicks…). Only in our dreams could game officials even come remotely close to that level of consistency in calling any violations – obviously, I’d love for them to achieve that when it comes to blocking/charging calls, but, frankly, I’d be thrilled if they could do it with something simple, like travelling, double-dribble, heck, ANY one thing…
And, by the way, the whole Duncan/Bowen did it is a complete non-starter. I don’t think that fit the definition of “altercation” for ANYBODY, not just for Stu Jackson. In their heart of hearts, when they act all grown up in real life, even Suns fans would have to admit that. If not, they could do a little thought experiment – using that as the new template for “altercation”, how long before it blew up in YOUR faces? And how would you feel then?
Second, obviously context is everything, but for all the hysteria surrounding this, if you were to rank the hardest fouls just for this post-season, where would Horry’s rank? Would it seriously even make the top 10??? And remind me again, how many others drew a 2(as in two!!!!) game suspension? Or even a 1 game?
….. sorry, thought you were still counting…
And if you’re going to tack on the extra game for the elbows up on Raja(pretending, of course, that you were doing it seriously, and not merely to cut down just a teeeeeeny bit on the whinestorm rolling out of the valley of the sun…), how exactly did Raja not get a little of that action? Horry is walking away, show’s over, call the flagrant, move on… without Raja’s escalation, the whole thing is over in seconds, and the Suns get their well-deserved win and leave the Spurs disgusted with their play the last two minutes and griping (privately, of course, we’re not talking about Amare and D’Antoni here…) about the screw job the refs just pulled on them, and we strap it on for a full-strength battle royale in the desert…
Where – and here’s the part that gets me every time I read another comment about how the Suns were better, and were going to win, and no doubt about it – the Spurs still own their asses… Remind me again – what’s the Suns sterling record against the Spurs lately? Was this going to be the hugest upset of all time with the Spurs managing to conquer the team they get beat by all the time? What? Come again? You mean, the Spurs actually beat the Suns like half the time even when they’re full strength? Why, that just cannot be!!! Oh, it isn’t…
See, it’s waaaaay better than half the time. In fact, except for the wishful thinking of the Suns fanbase, which includes EVERY casual fan, which includes MOST of the media, this was going to be an uphill battle for the Suns from the get-go. Those pesky matchups again…
Don’t get me wrong, the Suns are hugely fun to watch. I used to love watching the Nuggets back in the Moe days too. And the RunTMC Warriors. And I used to be disappointed every year when every one of those teams failed to win against the balanced, boring, play-defense-all-the-time teams that seem to always win the long series in the playoffs… Of course, in honesty, I don’t recall those teams, or frankly, ANY teams ever whining as much as these Suns…
Sun cried wolf too many times and too often, Don’t blames rules and Spurs, you out did yourselves Girly men.
The NBA: “I love this game, but not anymoreâ€
With the wonderful handling of the officiating in the NBA in general I believe its time for the fans to take action. For those who watched the Suns / Spurs series I must say that it had the worst officiating in the history of professional sports. At least in the opinion of myself and many others. I could give a laundry list of examples but this isn’t a gripe email. The fact is that to win a championship in the NBA you must not possess skill, speed, or ability. You must possess thugs to hammer better players to the ground. You must beat the crap out of your opponents, and you must use third string players to hammer superstars in front of their bench. This is what makes a champion in the NBA. Sad but True.
The rules are enforced to favor the teams that approach this style of full contact basket ball. I’m not watching basket ball, I’m watching the old Arnold Schwarzenegger movie The Running Man, except the good guy looses.
I personally am going to boycott the NBA until further notice. This is no longer a game of skill that centers around putting the ball in the basket. It is a boxing match that centers around the strategy of how to most effectively hit and assault the other team. My personal message to David Stern… “I love this game, but not anymoreâ€
Boycott the NBA. National “Boxing†Association
Shogun,
I have a great suggestion for you… perfect actually. Because what you want to watch is available to you…
The WNBA.
Just think, you get to share in the beauty of basketball without any “thugs” or people who play defense. I have a feeling you’re gonna love it so much you’ll begin to share their monthly cycles….
Don’t worry, though, we’ll really miss you over here where the men play.
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